Y'all need to give GM more credit.

"Your boy, BJR" (jerseyshoreben) 04/13/2015 at 17:20 • Filed to: None

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last night's debacle got me thinking.....so many people love to bash GM on here, yet they've done more to shape the auto industry and what we love about cars more than any other company. The first to unite multiple brands under one corporate family? GM. First to have the 3 pedals/stick layout we all know and love? Cadillac. Assembly line? Sure Henry Ford gets the credit, but it was actually his former boss, Ransom E. Olds who invented and first used it. Magneride? Delphi, a GM subsidiary. Closed metal roof? Cadillac. Electric starter? Cadillac. Turbo? Oldsmobile. Air bag? Buick. Muscle cars? Oldsmobile. I could keep going on, but you get the picture. GM wrote the manual, the rest follow the instructions. They've had their ups and downs, but who hasn't? Like it or not, GM IS the greatest and most important car company ever, and it's about goddamn time you start giving them their due.

crowmolly > Your boy, BJR 04/13/2015 at 17:21

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Muscle cars? Oldsmobile.

You mean Pontiac?

505Turbeaux > crowmolly 04/13/2015 at 17:25

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he is referring to the Rocket 88, which is considered by many, not all, of being the grand pappy muscle car

Brian, The Life of > crowmolly 04/13/2015 at 17:26

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WHAT?

itschrome > Your boy, BJR 04/13/2015 at 17:27

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I dunno... it's no Lincoln. :P

TheLOUDMUSIC- Put it in H! > crowmolly 04/13/2015 at 17:27

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No, he means Olds. http://www.pomonaswapmeet.com/blog/2014/04/1…

Jordan and the Slowrunner, Boomer Intensifies > Your boy, BJR 04/13/2015 at 17:29

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Yeah sorry, but the most important goes to Benz. Without them, how much of the car world would exist?

crowmolly > 505Turbeaux 04/13/2015 at 17:30

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Shit, I forgot about that thing. Ike Turner would beat my ass.

Logansteno: Bought a VW? > Your boy, BJR 04/13/2015 at 17:30

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FUCKING YES. PREACH!

505Turbeaux > crowmolly 04/13/2015 at 17:30

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with a shoe, no doubt!

Jayhawk Jake > Jordan and the Slowrunner, Boomer Intensifies 04/13/2015 at 17:34

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Eh, disagree completely. Benz wasn't the only one working on an automobile. Had he failed someone else would have succeeded and gotten credit for inventing the car. Ben makes a good point, credit should go to those who pushed the tech regardless of whether or not they invented it.

The Wright Brothers are credited as inventors of the airplane, but without pioneers such as Glen Curtiss we wouldn't have the airplane as we know it today. The Wrights actually didn't do much innovating after the first few planes they made, and frankly they often get more credit than they deserve

SmoresTM Has No Chill (O==[][]==O) > Your boy, BJR 04/13/2015 at 17:39

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The most important? Nope.

Mercedes Benz

The first car (1886)

The first honeycomb radiator

The first electric car (1906)

The first multivalve engine AND the first supercharged engine

First 4-wheel independant suspension

First diesel passenger car

First crumple zone, along with many other safety innovations

First GATED SHIFTER !!!!

The first real crash testing program

Invented ABS

And this is only stuff they did first. I don't even particularly like Mercedes, but they are the most important company in the history of the automotive industry.

That's not to say the GM isn't also hugely important, and I don't want to discredit the work they have done that played a massive role in propelling the auto industry forward, but they ain't MB.

Dwhite - Powered by Caffeine, Daft Punk, and Corgis > Your boy, BJR 04/13/2015 at 17:40

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If we're diving into history for every GM good, there is an equal and opposite bad.

To start GM, at least "old GM", is literally the poster child to bad accounting practices. Massively miss managed and grossly ignorant to reality that started long before Wagoner drove them into the ground. They went bankrupt for gods sake. Delphi was a massive disaster for GM, before and after they spun them off. The amount of college case studies done on them is probably insane.

The Oldsmobile diesel, the original V8-6-4, the Cimarron, the insane amount of recalls in the last year, sure some of them were unnecessary but 84 people died due to a faulty part they knew about. And thats just to name a few. The unsustainable growth that GM insisted to maintain even to the determent of everything else, all the while having a lineup of mostly lacking vehicles.

I'm sorry, but a corporation, especially one with the resources that GM has, doesnt deserve a break.

G_Body_Man: Sponsored by the number 3 > Your boy, BJR 04/13/2015 at 17:44

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Also, they invented the dream car.

bob and john > Your boy, BJR 04/13/2015 at 17:49

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here is the thing...I like tht GM is finally pulling their pants up and making good shit. Serioursly, i LOVE caddies new line up.

The problem is the closer you get to a good product the more glaring its flaws (how ever minor) become.

interiors for instance. I've been in a sunfire. I've been in a 08 vibe. I've been in a 09 impala and a new(ish) charger. The interiors are VASTLY improved in terms of how well they are actually screwed together and their designs.

but the materials are still really crummy plastics and it really really detracts from it.


And to counter your point:. Just because they were leaders at one point doesnt mean they are still a good company. Look at raleigh bicycles. 20 years ago they were some of the BEST bikes you would buy.

now its walmart quality stuff. Boooo

Your boy, BJR > bob and john 04/13/2015 at 17:56

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you keep citing shit that hasn't been made in YEARS as why they are inferior quality. Just admit you're nitpicking and move on.

Your boy, BJR > Dwhite - Powered by Caffeine, Daft Punk, and Corgis 04/13/2015 at 18:00

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90% of what you listed was in the automotive dark ages of 1974-1990. EVERY American car manufacturer had equally as bad fuckups in those days.

LongbowMkII > bob and john 04/13/2015 at 18:03

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Interior only, I'd rather be in my mom's fully optioned '14 Impala than a '14 3 series. If you're looking you'll find hard plastics, like bottom of the door panel, where it makes sense. the design gets a slight nod to BMW but the GM materials are overall better than a base bmw. GM'S stigma just gives it a different measuring stick.

Your boy, BJR > SmoresTM Has No Chill (O==[][]==O) 04/13/2015 at 18:07

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As far as "first car" goes, see Jayhawk's comment .

And for innovations? M-B's list pales in comparison to GM's. Gated shifter? Who gives a fuck, the forgot to cover it with a shift boot. Sure M-B has had tons of innovations, but to say they've had more than GM is blind ignorance.

Eric @ opposite-lock.com > Your boy, BJR 04/13/2015 at 18:14

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Assembly line? Sure Henry Ford came up with it but he was working at Oldsmobile at the time.

Olds was not owned by GM until 5 years after Ford Motor Company was founded and Henry Ford developed the assembly line for the Model T. Henry Ford also started Cadillac, which was one of GM's first acquisitions after Buick. GM has always been a holding company that primarily purchased established subsidiary manufacturers (Saturn was an exception), including Chevrolet, arguably their most famous marquee, which was ironically founded by the ousted founder of GM. Another interesting fact is that GM came very close to buying Ford out a couple years after Ford's big break with the Model T.

I can't refute most of the rest, but this was so far from reality that I had to call it out.

I'd argue that Benz (producer of the first relatively-practical gasoline-powered vehicles) and Ford (mass-production of the first truly cheap and practical car) are the "greatest and most important car companies ever".

Your boy, BJR > Eric @ opposite-lock.com 04/13/2015 at 18:18

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If you're gonna point out innacuracies, check your own. Cadillac was founded by Henry Leland, not Henry Ford.

Your boy, BJR > Eric @ opposite-lock.com 04/13/2015 at 18:23

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also, we were both wrong about the assembly line. Henry Ford didn't even come up with it- Ransom E. Olds did, and Oldsmobile was the first to use it.

Eric @ opposite-lock.com > Your boy, BJR 04/13/2015 at 18:25

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Actually, I was right, in a sense...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cadillac#…

Eric @ opposite-lock.com > Your boy, BJR 04/13/2015 at 18:33

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I was definitely wrong there, but H.F. did make it much more efficient. The assembly line for the Model T is arguably the most important development in auto manufacturing in the early days.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assembly_…

Ford Motor Company produced the cheapest (practical; there were competitors slightly undercutting them with far less practical vehicles) new cars relative to incomes for much of it's early history.

Your boy, BJR > Eric @ opposite-lock.com 04/13/2015 at 18:34

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not really. It was founded by Henry Leland using know how he got from working at the Henry Ford Company. That went tits up, so Leland said fuck that noise to whatever he did before cars and created cadillac. The only thing Henry Ford has to do with it is that he was Leland's former boss. That would be like saying I founded my friend's bitcoin mining company because I hired him at sunglass hut.

Just....no

bob and john > Your boy, BJR 04/13/2015 at 18:35

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thats the whole fucking point. Quality is in the details. As a general car they are just as good. They have kick ass engines. As a product, they arent quite there yet.

TheLOUDMUSIC- Put it in H! > Eric @ opposite-lock.com 04/13/2015 at 18:37

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Slick edit.

Your boy, BJR > bob and john 04/13/2015 at 18:37

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YOU'RE NITPICKING AN ECONOMY CAR MADE BY A DEFUNCT COMPANY 20 YEARS AGO!

That'd be like be basing my entire opinion of BMW on the rusted out falling apart 2002 I once owned!

bob and john > Your boy, BJR 04/13/2015 at 18:39

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its not just the sunfire. The impala too. You REALLY want argue that an impala is an economy car?

Eric @ opposite-lock.com > Your boy, BJR 04/13/2015 at 18:42

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Read my link, your story is bogus. They didn't work there at the same time, but Leland used Ford's designs in his cars. Both Model As were practically identical, aside from the engine.

Eric @ opposite-lock.com > TheLOUDMUSIC- Put it in H! 04/13/2015 at 18:46

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I had mixed the two engineers.

AM > bob and john 04/13/2015 at 18:46

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Yeah the Impala from 2009 had a poor interior but have you ever seen the 2014? It has a fantastic design and good overall materials. You're nitpicking old cars from when they were starting to let themselves fall. They have pulled their pants up and have good cars now, you just can't see it because it's in your mind to hate them.

SmoresTM Has No Chill (O==[][]==O) > Your boy, BJR 04/13/2015 at 18:51

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As far as "assembly line" goes, see Eric in the PNW's comment .*

As for the turbo claim, forced induction was the brain child of Gotleib Daimler. Yes, that Daimler. He patented something that was essentially a pump version of a turbocharger in 1885. The actual turbocharger that we know was invented by a Swiss man named Alfred Büchi, and the first road-going turbocharged vehicles were trucks built by Swiss Machine Works Saurer. The Corvair and Jetfire were the first turbocharged passenger cars, to which I say "k".

If you aren't going to give Mercedes credit for the first car, you sure as shit can't give GM credit for the turbo. Giving them credit for the manual trans that we love is equally as problematic, considering the first manual transmission with a pedal operated clutch was created by two French men name Réne Panhard and Emile Levassor (who also made the first car with a FR layout, I might add) in their own cars, and later used by Peugeot. Once again, if you're not going to give MB credit for the first car because other people were working on something similar, GM doesn't get credit for a three pedal transmission.

And the original patent for an airbag was filed by John W. Hetrick, who did not work for GM. He actually got the idea while driving his Chrysler. Once he filed his patent, both Ford and GM started working on an airbag, but neither paid or credited Hetrick for his idea. Once again, if you won't give MB credit for the first car because someone else was working on something similar at the same time, you cannot give GM credit for the airbag.

Do you see a pattern here? Using Jayhawk's comment actually discredits most of your claims. With a few exceptions, like the electric starter, GM has never been an innovator to the extent that you claim. They've gotten a lot of technology to market first, but not by much. They've improved on many ideas that had already existed, but they did not come up with a whole new thing. Giving GM credit for half of these innovations is blind ignorance, especially if we're supposed to use Jayhawks comment as some sort of model.

And adding the gated shifter to that list was a joke, thus the obnoxious bold and italics. Should've added an /s, I suppose.

*My link to Eric's post is intentionally snarky and meant to mimic your own inclusion of a flawed argument. I realize that there are inaccuracies in what he said, but Jawhawk's argument isn't anywhere near bulletproof either.

Your boy, BJR > SmoresTM Has No Chill (O==[][]==O) 04/13/2015 at 18:58

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Uuuuugh ooooh my god I'm so tired of this German worship on here......it's SO played out.

Your boy, BJR > bob and john 04/13/2015 at 19:08

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The W-Body impala that you're referencing even if I do (I do) it's still a car that was designed over 10 years ago if you're going by the gen you're referencing, 25 years ago if you mean W-Body in general. Oooh nooo a car that was basically designed with fleet sales in mind isn't as luxurious as your dad's Audi and it's TURGID GERMAN TURN SIGNALS! How dare they!

SmoresTM Has No Chill (O==[][]==O) > Your boy, BJR 04/13/2015 at 19:13

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Ahahaha. Yeah, because correctly giving the Swiss, French, and non-GM Americans credit for advancements incorrectly attributed to General Motors constitutes German worship. Alright, dude.

Look, I get your love for Caddy and GM. I really do. Cadillac is the automotive equivalent of the American Dream and I respect that way more than my comments on here show. But if you're wrong about historical shit, you're wrong.

bob and john > Your boy, BJR 04/13/2015 at 19:29

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so its a shit car that they kept in production for 10 years with hardly any updates...great, definetly making me like them more.

also, just looked on their site. still making that 20 year old van..(express...which i'm frankl;y amazed hasnt died off yet)

I've said at the start, and I'll say it again. they are going on the right direction. But with the recall apocolypes, and the shit decisions of the last decade, its oging to take a while before they are comparible with the germans.

Luke Murphy > Jordan and the Slowrunner, Boomer Intensifies 04/13/2015 at 19:50

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the S class in particular is a very important car. I don't much care for them or many Mercs but that is always very much a preview of the future. All companies are important and GM definitely did a lot of innovating, but they also built an astonishing amount of crap and have to lose some marks for that

Your boy, BJR > bob and john 04/13/2015 at 19:51

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1) doesn't mean the impala didn't make them a shit ton of money

2) how long was the panther made? Econoline? Fucking Sprinter?! There isn't anything wrong with the van, why stop making it.

3.) I'll let my friends in the R&D department know they should stop making the corvette and Vs kickass world beaters and start working on TURGID GERMAN TURN SIGNALS

The Opponaut formerly known as MattP123 > Your boy, BJR 04/13/2015 at 21:38

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Oldsmobile really was pretty innovative. I would loooooove a Jetfire.

sm70- why not Duesenberg? > Your boy, BJR 04/18/2015 at 14:16

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I know you would never admit to this, but I think Mercedes-Benz has done every bit as much for the auto industry as GM.

Jedidiah > Your boy, BJR 04/21/2015 at 18:19

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It actually was Oldsmobile who was first with Airbags with the Toronado.

Oldsmobile also made the first “modern” V8 engine and pioneered the automatic transmission along with Cadillac with the Hydramatic.

GM had a vast engineering and styling portfolio varied across its brands—each one often trying different technologies and then each division would adopt the things that would work the best. This was so that if a technological innovation introduced by a particular brand was a flop, the brand image of the others brands would remain good and GM could retain massive profit margins. Oldsmobile would introduce a technology and market the technology as innovative, Cadillac would adopt this technology and market it as desirable, then the other divisions would adopt it and show that you can afford it, regardless of your income level—a car for every purse and purpose.

A good example of this is the development of the Turbo-Hydramatic. Olds/Caddy introduced the Hydramatic and then Buick introduced the Dynaflow. (Dynaflow had 3 variable torque converters and speeds, Hydramatic had only a fluid coupling and 4 speeds) Realizing that a torque single converter instead of a fluid coupling was a essential, they concluded that a design that retained best characteristics of each would have a single torque converter and three speeds, thus the Turbo-Hydramatic was born.

This approach absolutely murdered the competition and allowed them to become the most powerful company of all time. Unfortunately, a company with this much momentum with varied motives and duplication of effort amongst its brands can’t change direction when it’s system stops working. Thus “Old” GM crashed and burned after dealing with the fuel crisis and foreign competition badly.

On a side note, the oldest manufacturers like Oldsmobile, Daimler, Peugeot, and Tatra have a list of significant “I did this first” achievements.

Your boy, BJR > Jedidiah 04/21/2015 at 18:22

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Dude you don’t gotta tell me, I’m an olds fanboy. The airbag came out on the ‘74 model year Buicks, Oldsmobiles, and Caddies all at once.

Jedidiah > Your boy, BJR 04/21/2015 at 18:27

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Its always cited as just Oldsmobile for some reason, I didn’t realize all three did it at once. Makes since because they adopted standardized dash boards and stuff around 73 for the biggest (and most expensive) of the big/expensive cars by GM. Looks like I need to give Buick some more credit, I’m also a huge Caddy/Olds fanboi.

I know that they called the “Air Cushion Restraint System” which is delightfully pretentious.

Your boy, BJR > Jedidiah 04/21/2015 at 18:29

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Yeah the Electra, Riviera, Toronado, Fleetwood, and Eldorado got it for ‘74